Aitor Esteban: "What's happening distorts the government's agenda, but it won't fall."

Aitor Esteban (Bilbao, 1962) was given a standing ovation on his last day in the Congress of Deputies after 21 years as a member of the PNV (Basque Nationalist Party) and after building a reputation as a good and respectful speaker. He arrived in Madrid just after the Atocha bombings and participated in the vote of no confidence against Mariano Rajoy, although he maintains a good relationship with the former PP president. For the past three months, he has led the party, a party he has been a member of since he was 16, and he often uses the word "coherence" in his speeches as a guide for conducting politics in turbulent times.

On Friday, we saw the latest clash between the People's Party (PP) and Pedro Sánchez's government. Isabel Díaz Ayuso stood up when the Lehendakari spoke in Basque. What did she think?

The gesture was already premeditated. And if anyone is shocked that Catalan can be spoken in Catalonia, I think they have a serious problem, but on a personal level, I'd say. That the Lehendakari should also speak in Basque seems normal and logical to me. It's a way of staging an opposition without any in-depth arguments. That said, regarding the conference of presidents forum, we've never believed it would serve much purpose. Given its format, it's a series of monologues, and then no concrete decisions are made.

The political climate in Madrid seems stifling. Do you think this is applicable to the rest of Spain?

Madrid has its own climate. It's a tension that exists not only in Parliament, but also in other administrative bodies and other branches of government, and it spills over into the streets. But it's not what you find in other places, like Catalonia or the Basque Country. If I'm clear about one thing after my time in Madrid, it's that we are three different nations, with different ways of thinking, approaching things, and expressing them. In Madrid, politics is understood only as confrontation. And politics is about agreements and compromise. Neither the opposition nor the government can hold water for the government.

Ayuso and languages If someone is shocked by the fact that Catalan is spoken in Catalonia, they have a serious problem.

Do you think we are at the end of a political cycle?

If you asked me at the European level, I'd say yes. In Spain, there's a climate creating that this is all going to end, that there will be elections soon, that this government is going to fall. We've already experienced this in this term at other times. A lot of it is created by the media in Madrid, but the reality is that there's no basis for a vote of no confidence to succeed. Vox absolutely prevents any agreement. Nor is the PP creating any grounds for anything to happen. And in our case, we have signed agreements.

So the legislature is not in danger?

The only way for the legislature to end is by the will of the Prime Minister himself. I imagine that, on the one hand, there will be the demographic factor, and perhaps a black swan event could emerge that could provoke it, but I don't see it right now. Lately, we're headed toward biweekly events that we didn't know about. I mean, a new WhatsApp, a new I don't know who, a report from I don't know how many, and that distorts a government's agenda. But that doesn't mean the government will fall, because there aren't enough parliamentarians to bring it down. And there won't be in this legislature. The numbers are what they are.

You've been in Madrid for years. Is politics as ruthless as it seems, or is there some drama going on?

I think the theatrical phase passed a long time ago. The podium always has a bit of representation, but it has to be just a little, because if it's all theater, people notice. You have to convey something you truly believe in. If it's all about insults, denigrating the adversary, and getting personal, we send a harmful message to society. I've seen tensions, even on a personal level, between the leader of the opposition and the corresponding prime minister. But it's true that we're witnessing a degeneration in which insults for insults' sake and barbarism are the order of the day. Podemos, when it arrived, already started with the caste issue. Then Rivera came along, who took another step with the band thing. And with Vox, that spills over everywhere. In the PP, there's always been a band in the stands of the chamber from which they tell you nice things.

Political tension "The climate of this being over is largely created by the Madrid media."

How to make politics more constructive?

There's no recipe; it's just people. It's like it always is. Some have thought it's all about the tweet after all.

One of the latest cases to emerge is that of Leire Díez. Do you think the PSOE should come forward to explain itself?

This is the first time I've heard of this woman. At first, I thought she was a little Nicholas. It's difficult because if you jump right in, it'll seem like something's up. If you don't say anything, it's also suspicious, but at this point, something has to be said. It wouldn't have to go to Parliament if explanations were given.

Do you think there are sewers in the State, for example in the UCO?

Of course there are, in many places. In that deep Madrid, in the world of the judiciary, in the administration, in economic circles. Many interests are at work in Madrid. Then they tell the rest of us that we're not well-traveled, but sometimes I get the feeling there's a Madrid that has never traveled in its life, that has never left the M-50. They're very inbred in their messages. There's a rather conservative way of understanding Spain, very uniform, that tries to create sensations, saying that the homeland is at stake or that it's "mafia or democracy." Then we see court cases that are held together with pins. Of course there are sewers, yes. And also in the police forces. Look what happened with the patriotic police... and Civil Guard officials making political tweets.

You lived through the GAL, do you think certain structures have not yet been cleaned up?

In Congress, if someone has to name the police, the Civil Guard, or the army, it must immediately be accompanied by praise for their wonderful and marvelous dedication. Well, listen, sometimes they do things well, but they also do things badly. It's something we've been carrying with us since the transition, because there was no rupture, and we're also carrying it with us because of the ETA issue. Being uncritical isn't good, not for the police, the Civil Guard, or the army.

Tension in Congress “Podemos started with the caste, then Rivera with the gang, and with Vox it overflowed”

The PP calls the PSOE a mafia, and the Socialists denounce a smear campaign. What do you think?

For me, opposition must have limits, and the Executive should stop abusing decree laws. I also think the groups that support the government should take a look in the mirror. Obviously, some more than others. We are quite reliable. When we have disagreements, we discuss them with the government, we vote no, but we try to reach agreements and a compromise.

Is it consistent to grant the investiture and then deny a budget?

It isn't. I've always said that the government should have its first budget. But I don't think there will be one. I don't see any interest in giving it to them. Starting with Podemos, for example.

And Junts?

Well, I don't know. I'd have to ask Junts.

Have the PNV's bridges with the PP been broken?

The relationship hasn't been broken; I continue to maintain it. We will always maintain bridges with a democratic party, but it's true that the PP's policies seem to be looking for issues to slander the PNV. I don't understand why, but we have the feeling that it's coordinated, directed, and decisive.

Is it harder to reach an understanding with Feijóo's PP?

I've met Rajoy, and we got along well. I haven't had much of a chance with Feijóo. In any case, he has my phone number, and I have his.

And in the territorial debate, how do you see the PP and the PSOE?

In Spain, there are people who consider themselves to belong to a different nation, and you can hide that reality, but it is what it is. Sometimes it feels like they're thinking of taking the far right's voters away. I remember Pablo Casado's speech against Vox in Congress, but that has faded.

You are asking for a new status for the Basque Country...

We're negotiating with the Socialists and Bildu, but with absolute discretion. This government has a few years left. Let's see if there's time. And if we in the Basque Country come to an agreement first, because there are differences but also a willingness. It's a long process. I don't know if it can be completed in this term, but I hope so, because these are profound changes that will take decades, and I would like there to be a better climate between the PP and the PSOE because it would allow for a more natural approach.

Financing "The unique financing proposed by Catalonia is not like the Basque agreement."

How are relations with Junts?

Well, I'm going to meet with them. (The interview was conducted on Friday.)

And do you plan to meet with Puigdemont?

No. They haven't asked me either.

They're concerned about the unique funding Catalonia is seeking. Could it jeopardize the Basque quota?

Benefiting doesn't benefit us because bringing up this issue calls into question ours. And it benefits us even less when there are some statements, even coming from Catalonia, saying, "No, ours will be supportive," as if the Basque one weren't. We will try to help, and hopefully they will succeed. But the Basque economic agreement is a different approach, and the individual financing is not like the Basque agreement.

What is your opinion on the working day?

The 37.5-hour workweek is held by almost half of workers in the Basque Country. We need to fine-tune the fine print, which affects SMEs and commerce. We'll wait for the amendment to be processed as a whole and then introduce amendments.

And what do you think about defense spending? Do you think it's feasible to reach the 5% level requested by NATO?

The government's economy isn't up to that, especially without a budget. It's too big a leap. Now, people need to be told that we're entering a new world, that European defense used to be carried out by the US, and that it's no longer a viable partner. If Europe believes in its values ​​and principles, it must defend them. I think we should move toward a European army, and Spain should invest more. It would be ridiculous to leave it to the Germans and the French alone to do it. Because the defense industry is usually at the forefront of R&D and has dual uses with civilian applications.

And on the issue of immigration, are you asking for the powers of Junts?

We too would like to have the powers and implement our own migration policy. But we'll see what all this turns out to be. The government is resisting all of this. What I would ask of the executive branch is that, while it has the powers, it exercises them, which it often doesn't, and the same goes for the autonomous communities. But the government should also put a little order. You're not going to stop the waves of migration, and regularization must come through work. Now, the clean slate, which is what's being proposed, of saying no to anyone who arrives now and yes to anyone who's been here since a certain date, isn't going to be understood by the population.

What solutions does the PNV propose for the housing problem?

We have jointly announced a legislative initiative in the Basque Country with the Socialist Party. At the time, we did not support the Housing Law because it was an invasion of powers, but the government was in a hurry and wanted to ignore our discussion. I believe that legal security must be provided to homeowners, and if there is a situation of vulnerability, the response must come from the institutions. Housing cannot be approached from an ideological perspective.